John Paulson Speaks Out; Is Silver Poised to Catch Up with Gold?

Charlotte McLeod:I am Charlotte McLeod with InvestingNews.com, and here today with Stefan Gleason, CEO of Money Metals, thank you so much for joining me. Great to have you here.

Stefan Gleason:Great to be here, Charlotte. Thank you.

Charlotte McLeod:Really good to be speaking with you. As we were saying before we turn the camera on, I think we've seen each other on different YouTube channels. We're online for a number of years now, so good to be speaking with you. But just because it is our first time talking, I'm wondering if you could give me a quick introduction to yourself and your background in the precious metals industry.

Stefan Gleason:Sure. Yeah. And I feel the same. I feel like we've known each other for years because when I'm on the fitness machine or just at the office with a few extra moments, I watch your show, so it's great. A lot of great guests. My name is, as you mentioned, Stefan Gleason. I'm CEO of Money Metals, and we are one of the largest online precious metals dealers in the US, top three in size in terms of our footprint in the market. And importantly, and most recently, we launched a much larger depository for our business. And in fact, the largest precious metals depository in North America in Eagle, Idaho. And so it's a facility that's literally twice the size of Fort Knox in Kentucky. So we can get into that, but I've been in the precious metals space for about 15 years. We launched the business in 2010 and was an investor in precious metals before that and also involved in public policy for 15 years in Washington DC before I launched Money Metals.

And so I look at this as a growing market not just in the US but around the world. And we're trying to do a better job of communicating and delivering and providing service and value than was available in the market when we entered 15 years ago. And I think we've been successful so far in doing that. And unfortunately, we're in a business where bad things is good for our industry and there's a lot of bad things happening in the world right now, and that has been really creating a lot more activity in our market, particularly since the pandemic. So it's been a busy time.

Charlotte McLeod:Yeah, really good to get just a little bit of background information on you and the depository. This was why I had initially reached out to you or one of the reasons why I reached out. I heard that this depository in Idaho has been completed, so definitely curious to hear more about that and the process of putting that together.

Stefan Gleason:Sure.

Charlotte McLeod:Yeah. So maybe we can go into that a little bit.

Stefan Gleason:Yeah, Money Metals has been in the storage business for about 10 years, but that part of the business has really been growing rapidly. And we've been, as I mentioned, we had a depository already in Idaho, but we outgrew it about four years ago, just massively expanding that part of the business and needing a lot more storage space for our customers, which are really from all over the world, not just the US, but mostly US of course. And so we had to use an auxiliary depository or two to manage the overflow as we built the new facility. And we just completed it and moved into it two or three months ago. And it's basically, it's 40,000 square feet overall, the building, and the vaults in the facility. There's actually four massive vaults totaling almost 9,000 square feet, which is twice the amount of vault space that is in Fort Knox, the US Bullion Depository at Fort Knox.

So that's fun to say. And it's literally true. It's more than twice the size of Fort Knox. Same with the building. It's a class three structure, meaning it's the ultimate in security from the standpoint of the thickness of the walls and the security systems and so forth. So we've taken this really seriously. That part of the business required a lot of resources to secure the kind of assets that we have in the facility and that we expect to have over time. And in fact, we actually have the ability to increase the vault space by 100% if we need to in a future expansion. So we're basically set up now to service tens of billions of dollars, if not, hundreds of millions of dollars worth of precious metal storage.

Of course, a big part of what we store is silver, not just gold. So as a result, that's quite bulky and that's part of the reason that the space is needed. But the ultimate way of storage is segregated, where people have individual containers, they can't come into the vaults or anything, or most people are all over the country, all over the world, but they have their own container. So it's like a safe deposit box, so to speak, where it's just their property in that container. It's in a controlled environment. Anytime the container is open, it's audited by two people, it's under cameras, everything's dual controls, highly accountable, RFID, all kinds of different things going on. And measures to keep track of the inventory, to secure and to control access for even the employees of our business. There's only a few employees that even have access to the vaults and under certain circumstances. So it's a really neat operation.

And segregated storage is the ultimate way of storing in terms of protection. You're not co-mingled with any other metal. It's not part of a pool. And so literally the metal that you put in is the exact same metal that comes back out, and that's really the ideal way to store it.

Of course, storage is not for everybody. Most people, most customers and Money Metals and frankly most precious metals owners at the retail level, they want to have the gold and silver in their own possession. And so virtually all of our frankly, orders are shipped out to people, not stored, but a small percentage, maybe two to 5%. And especially those that have larger amounts or where they don't have sufficient insurance in their house, they realize that actually storing it in a depository is less expensive than getting your insurance company to cover up your house, things like that, or the convenience, they don't want to have to ship it when they want to sell later, that kind of thing. There's lots of reasons that people use storage.

But most people want to have the gold and silver in their possession. And frankly, we think that that's where people should start. Part of the reason you own gold and silver is to know that you have the assets, know that you have the money in your own hands or direct access to it, and that's really what brings a lot of people to the physical markets in the first place. But there are circumstances where it makes a lot of sense to store it by a third party like us.

Charlotte McLeod:That's very interesting. I had never really thought about what percentage of people might be storing it versus taking delivery. So that's quite interesting. And of course, so this massive expansion completion is coming at maybe the perfect time where we have gold at all time highs. So another thing I was curious to ask you is buying trends that you're seeing, who are you seeing increase [inaudible 00:07:20] precious metals and where is it coming from? Is it coming from people who want to add to their position, or people who are just coming into the market?

Stefan Gleason:Well, it's very interesting. Obviously, higher prices in gold represent more demand than the opposite, so there's clearly more demand coming in. That said, in the last year or so, that demand is not really coming from North America or Europe, at least in terms of the marginal amounts that is causing the higher prices. That's coming from Asia, it's coming from central banks. So really in the last year, the major driver of the gold price has not been retail demand or even ETF demand in the West or Europe, America and so forth. It's been the East. So that said, we saw a massive explosion in demand, and I know you've chronicled this with many of your interviews with other retailers. There's been a massive explosion in demand overall since 2020, since the pandemic. We saw a huge influx of new buyers of physical gold and silver in the US and this part of the world.

But that has diminished, or I should say, pulled back or leveled off as of basically last summer. The last event that caused a major inflow was that big banking crisis early last year with the regional banks, and that was actually among our best month ever. If not, I think we did have our best month ever in March of 2023. But really since last summer, it's been more subdued. And as a matter of fact, we've seen more selling from retail customers than we usually see. It's still way less than we see buying, but we do see more selling because of the higher prices that people are seeing. So they're taking a little money off the table. Maybe they need the money for some reason, but so I guess it's just interesting.

We still have a very small percentage of the American people that own any gold and silver. I would say it's probably at least double what it was five years ago because of that huge flurry of activity for several years. But it's leveled off. And my best estimate is maybe about 2% of the American people own any physical gold or silver other than jewelry, which means that it's still a very under-owned asset. It's not as culturally embraced in the US, like it maybe was 100 or 200 years ago. But in Asia, that's very much something that people do. It's how they save. It's just part of the culture. And we don't really have that in the US. And I think eventually we're going to get back to that as people increasingly see what's happening and realize there's a war on the Federal Reserve Note, a war on savings. One way to opt out of that system and to get some financial insurance is to get physical gold and silver.

So I mean, I'm very bullish about the future of retail demand, and as I said, it is way better or way more than it was five years ago, but the last six to 12 months has been pretty mild. We've seen a little bit more on the high net worth side coming in than usual. So that part, the folks in that realm are probably more in tune and maybe see the opportunity. But on those average retail side, it's relatively flat. But it only takes one thing. Three weeks ago, there was a stock market heart attack that happened in the US massive day of buying in the retail market. Six times, seven times for two days, but then it's abated and went back to normal. So I think there's a lot of fireworks ahead. The world is not getting safer. There's obviously inflation as increasingly obvious problem, continues to be a problem. We have war. We have political turmoil. There's instability in the banks with the commercial real estate loans and so forth. So there's a lot of things that are out there, and it really only takes one or two things to unfold, and then boom, another major surge in the demand.

Charlotte McLeod:Really interesting to get your perspective there. I think that's really useful. And another thing that I imagine maybe people in the western thinking about here is they see the price at an all-time high, and they've heard they shouldn't buy high. You should be buying low. So another question that I had for you is when people are looking at products right now, physical gold products, where can they go to get the best value?

Stefan Gleason:Yeah. Yeah. Well, of course in gold, the number one thing is stay away from the rare coins. And unfortunately, unless you're an expert and there are some true value, there's some true value there if you really know what you're doing. Unfortunately, part of our industry in the United States is very heavy on promoting collectibles on television with celebrity spokespeople and high pressure salespeople. And so the number one thing is that I encourage people to think about is what is the melt value of the metal that you're buying? What is the market price of the metal? And don't pay a whole lot more than that. If you're being sold on a story or some supposed special run or a proof coin or a collectible and you don't know what you're doing, you need to stay away from the dealers that are promoting that because they're basically ripping you off. And you might turn around and find out that you lost half your money because they sold you a gold coin that's only worth $2,500, $2,600 that they sold you for 5,000. So that's the number one thing is don't buy any of that stuff.

Number two in gold is we encourage people to look at the lower margin items, and that's basically the bars and not the coins. And so again, there's not much extra value in anything that's a coin unless it's a true rarity. And so why pay any more money than you have to for an ounce of gold or a half ounce of gold? And so whatever it is, generally you want to stay away from anything that's graded, even possibly just coins and favor bars. Unless you have a special reason. That's what we recommend. Or if it's a coin, then maybe a bullion coin like the Canadian Maple Leaf or a US Eagle, but the bullion type, not a proof, not a graded coin.

And then of course, the other opportunity is silver, and I think that's where people should be looking to shift. Not that gold is not going to go higher, I think it probably will, but silver is way, way underperforming gold, and it's a substantially less, obviously than it's 1980 high and it's 2011 high. It's barely 60% of that right now. And of course the 1980 high in real terms is probably equivalent to $200 in today's devalued Federal Reserve Note. So we are way, way, way below those highs. And historically, with the gold silver ratio, silver is way undervalued compared to gold. So I think that other than looking at gold bars, people would be well served to shift in to silver in the current environment.

And same thing there, silver bars, silver rounds, silver coins, if they're bullion coins. But again, the bars are going to be your best value. And silver is probably the best value, at least for the medium to long-term compared to gold, it's more volatile as everybody knows who watches your show. So if it's a short-term thing or you can't handle the volatility, then maybe gold's the way to go. But I'd encourage people to look at silver more, especially now.

Charlotte McLeod:Yeah, I think it's a good plan to take a look at the outlook for gold and silver. And I'll start with silver just because you're talking about it right now. I think it's been a really frustrating metal for some people who are wondering, okay, we've got gold at all-time highs, silver, as you mentioned very far from its all-time high. What do you think would bring about a breakout in silver? I won't ask when it might happen, but what do you think could be that catalyst?

Stefan Gleason:Sure. Well, of course we already see an annual production deficit. There's more demand than supply. It's been 200 to 300 million ounces the last two or three years, and it looks to be continuing now. So I think number one, the ongoing supply deficit is going to drain the above-ground stockpiles. Now, there's several billion ounces of silver out there, so it's not that we're about to run out of silver, but it's starting to come being drained out of those places. And I think obviously the major driver is solar, huge driver for silver. I think it's over 200 or about 200 million ounces, and it's expected to double that or triple that over the next 10 years. So I think solar being a huge driver of demand.

There was just some news headlines in the last few weeks about silver battery technology that Samsung released that could work really well in EVs, much quicker charging much longer distances. So silver is a remarkable metal in the sense that not only is it a monetary metal, it has that history, but the industrial value and uses of it, both from electronics, from medicine because of its quality as a biocide, it kills something like 400 microorganisms and bacteria. It has that application. And of course, the green technology, the electric, the solar, it lost the photography use, which is the one downside from the last 10 or 15 years moving to digital photography. But that's been more than made up by things like solar.

So I mean, I think it's just these additional years of deficits combined with what's happening in the mining sector where the cost of production has been rising. And they're not making more money even though silver prices are higher because their margins are shrinking even as the price rises because their costs are going up faster.

And that's because of inflation and energy prices, labor costs, government regulation. So I think all of that is going to impact the ability to bring on new supply. And that combined with the new demand coming in. Of course, this story's been out there. This isn't the first time people have heard this story, but I just think on a risk reward basis, it's the better bet. But again, it's more volatile and you shouldn't put all your money in silver. I look at gold as more of a savings or cash, and silver is a little bit more of a speculative play, longer term play, but they're both part of what people should be doing. So yeah, I think we're going to see more fireworks and silver coming in the shorter term compared to gold. And that's the other thing. In a bull market, gold starts out by leading and then silver catches up and then usually will outperform. And so we've seen gold breakout. We've seen gold outperform, silver's really just hung back. I think the next loop that we see will be in silver.

Charlotte McLeod:Yeah, I think people know that. But then there's a lot of impatience, so we'll keep pushing silver.

Stefan Gleason:The expect. That's something to keep in check for sure.

Charlotte McLeod:Yeah. Okay, so that covers what's going on with silver there. And if we look over to gold, I would like to get your outlook there as well because it seems like we're in an interesting time where normally when talking about gold outlook, I'd be asking people about the Fed and inflation. And this year it feels like we've seen quite a shift toward geopolitics, that kind of thing. So what drivers are you looking at for gold?

Stefan Gleason:Well, inflation is definitely there and definitely a driver, but I think it's the de-dollarization trend, and especially since 2022 when we weaponized the SWIFT system, kicked out Russia, disallowed their gold bars in the west, locked up their bonds, had other countries look at these actions, things that we didn't even do during the Cold War, and they look at these actions and unfortunately that my country and the US has been willing to try to corral people and control people using the dollar-based system and the SWIFT payment system. I think we're basically making the case to most of the world that they need to de-dollarize. And that has accelerated in the last two or three years. That's why we see all-time highs in gold right now. It's central bank buying. It's de-dollarization. It's saving in other currencies and diversifying away from the dollar. So I think that's the major trend.

What's interesting is you have central bank demand and Asian demand. Those are very strong. You don't really have the US and Western demand at the moment. If that kicks in at the same time as those things are going on, that's I think gets really exciting for gold. So I mean, my outlook on gold is that I look at it again as savings. I think it's something you should put on your balance sheet as a company. It's something you should add on your personal balance sheet. It's highly liquid. It's better money. It has a higher real return than Federal Reserve Notes, even when you take into account the interest that you get, gold outperforms. And so it just needs to be a part of what everybody has as savings. And I think that awareness, I think that is a mindset that is changing and more in that direction. And led by the East, of course.

Charlotte McLeod:Yeah. Okay. So on that note, I know that Money Metals works with Sound Money Defense League to produce the Sound Money Index, which is essentially ranking all of the states in the US on their Sound Money practices. So I think that's important as people are waking up to the importance of owning gold silver. So I was hoping we could take a little bit of a look at that, maybe your takeaways from how the index looks right now.

Stefan Gleason:Yeah, so we're focused, Money Metals is the leader on the public policy front for Sound Money in the US and I have a public policy background, so that's been part of my DNA. So we've been able to leverage our company and involve our customers, and we have 750,000 US customers who are engaged and care about gold and silver. They're on our email list, they're on our mailing list. And we have many other people that aren't yet customers also in our network. And so we're able to engage and help and work with our grassroots essentially to encourage states and state legislators to pass reforms that are pro Sound Money. And what I mean by that, of course, the problem of political money or fiat money, the lack of Sound Money is a federal problem in the United States. It's caused by the changes to our monetary system, the Federal Reserve and so forth. But states don't have to be a sitting duck. There are things that states can do to make their citizenry more able to access gold and silver or to protect the state using gold and silver.

And so we've been advancing legislation with the help of legislators around the country and have passed dozens of bills now over the last few years that removes, for example, sales tax from when you purchase gold and silver. There's only five states left in the United States that still tax all purchases of gold and silver. And that's changed. We passed about 10 exemptions in the last 10 years. So that's a trend, removing the tax on the purchase. The next step is removing the tax on the sale, the income tax. And so several states have now passed exemptions for income tax on gold and silver. So if you have a capital gain, you don't pay a tax on the income side.

And of course if you have a capital gain when you sell gold, it's probably a result of the devaluation of the Federal Reserve Note. It's not necessarily a gain in real terms. And so it's adding insult injury to make somebody pay taxes on that. And so some states have recognized that as a problem and they've been passing exemptions on the income tax. And then beyond that is, and there's many other things in the index. I've got a copy of it right here. People, if they go to Moneymetals.com, they can actually access it and you can look up your state if you're in the US and see on about 13 different policy fronts what the state law is in your state. But at the top of the index right now is Wyoming, South Dakota, Alaska, New Hampshire and Arkansas. Those are the best as far as their policies.

At the bottom is California, Minnesota, Maine, New Jersey, and Vermont. The next thing that we've been talking to states about quite a bit lately and several states are now doing this, is the state itself beginning to acquire gold for the taxpayers as a reserve asset for the state. I know that first of all, Ohio owns gold and silver in their pension plan, about a billion dollars worth of physical gold. Utah is about to acquire 200 million. They just passed a law this year to enable the state treasurer to hold gold for the state as a reserve asset. Tennessee has passed a law like this, Texas has a law like this, and there's several others that are looking at doing the same.

And so just as central banks are accumulating gold around the world, states in the United States are seeing the opportunity for them to hedge their risks to the dollar and other things that are unfolding by acquiring gold and silver. And so that I think is the third battle front that we're on now, moving away from the taxes, or not moving away, but moving beyond that to gold reserves at the state level. And there's other policies too, that we promote, but those are the three main ones.

Charlotte McLeod:That's quite interesting. It's interesting to see the states take their own initiative there. Do you see any commonalities between the ones that are at the top of the index and the ones that are at the bottom?

Stefan Gleason:That's a great question. The commonality, I wouldn't say this is a partisan issue, but I would say that the more statist or liberal states tend to be bad on the Sound Money Index, they're higher tax environments. For example, you look at the bottom Vermont, New Jersey, Maine, Minnesota, California, these are very liberal states, at least on tax policy. Most of them are liberal in general politically. But that said, New Jersey unanimously just passed a sales tax exemption through both chambers and it's sitting on the governor's desk right now and hopefully will be signed in the next two weeks. And that's a almost entirely Democrat state. So back to the point that it's not necessarily a partisan thing.

I mean, I think the problem of inflation affects everybody, and I think that has given us more momentum is that people are seeing we have this inflation problem, what can you do to protect against inflation? And so whether somebody's a Democrat or a Republican, they see constituents that are struggling with inflation and then somebody comes to them and says, "Let them save in gold and silver so they can keep up with inflation, take away the tax." They see that as a positive. And so a lot of the pushback that we get is more out of naivete, I would say, and not hostility, at least at the state level.

So on the top of the list, Wyoming, very low population state, more of a freedom-oriented state. South Dakota, the same. Alaska, the same. New Hampshire is iffy, but it's very high on the index. So I mean, there's some commonality. I'd say it's skews more towards the red states, but again, it's not that partisan.

Charlotte McLeod:Okay. So as we've been talking about, we're seeing people come to the realization that they should be owning more gold and silver. We're seeing this at the state level developing there. And one other topic that we said we would talk about is companies, companies holding gold and silver. I know that you've written about this among mining companies, but it's something that even non-mining companies might want to consider right now. So I was hoping you could share a little bit about that.

Stefan Gleason:Yeah, just the idea of gold being a treasury asset that is like cash, really better than cash, but diversified and maybe hedging your cash. Any company that has cash balances should be looking at at least some small allocation or maybe larger allocation to physical gold. And very few do. I mean, Palantir owned, I think 50 million worth of gold bars. They recently sold it. I think Overstock.com, the CEO there acquired gold. I think Elon Musk, I know he is talked about Bitcoin. I think he's also looking or has gold, a Tesla. But the bottom line is almost no companies have physical gold. And it's remarkable even in the mining sector where these are the people who should know, they know what they're mining, or at least you would hope they do. They're basically mining money. They're literally mining money, historical money, gold and silver.

But the industry is dominated by geologists and accountants, and it's a tough industry and it's a tough industry. No taking that away. But at the end of the day, virtually every mining company that literally mines money, as soon as they get it out of the ground, boom, they sell it for cash. And instantly, and whatever the price is at that moment, they sell it for cash. They don't hold it, they don't hold their production back. Arguably, of course they have gold and silver on the ground. But all the money and resources and time and work that's involved in bringing a mine online, it takes 10 to 20 years, sometimes longer, one out of 750 deposits or discoveries ever become a mine, a recent stat that I saw. And then their costs are constantly rising, and so they're selling the ounces that they finally get out of the ground with the hope of recycling that money back into mining to produce more ounces in the future. But what are those ounces going to cost in the future? What is the value of those ounces in the future?

So there's literally only one company right now, just one that we're aware of, that actually owns Bullion on the balance sheet. And that's as a result of a specific strategy undertaken about a year and a half ago by SilverCrest Metals, SilverCrest Metals. And Chris Richie, I think he's been on your podcast, he's the president there, and he's very eloquent and articulate about the reasons for this strategy. So people can go back and watch that interview, I'm sure you addressed it, but I mean, they have I think something like 110 million in working capital in that company. They paid off all their debt, they have a great producing silver mine, but they took now almost $30 million and put it into physical gold. And they did that most of that before the gold price ran up 30%.

So they are sitting on, first of all, they're looking very smart by doing that, number one. Number two, they are diversifying their cash and while they decide how to next expand their company, they're keeping that powder dry and not just putting it in paper. And I think it says something about that they understand as a company what they have and what they're doing. They understand their product, they eat their own cooking, so to speak.

So I think it's amazing that they're the only ones that we're aware of, more should do it. Now, of course, a lot of companies don't have cash and they have a huge amount of debt and they're struggling, but maybe that's part of the problem. The mining sector has done a bad job as a steward of the investment capital they've gotten, and part of it may be that they don't fully appreciate what they're producing.

And so anyway, SilverCrest Metals I would say right now is the only one, and hopefully there'll be a lot more, but I think it's something that will reward them. I think they're already seeing a little bit of a benefit from that strategy just in terms of the investors just recognizing, "Hey, here's a company that actually believes in gold and silver."

Charlotte McLeod:Yeah, it was very fascinating to hear Chris from SilverCrest explain it. So maybe I'll add the link to that video in the description if people want to go take a look at it. I'm wondering, if more companies start to do this, do you think this is something that will benefit the share prices of these mining companies? Because I think one complaint that people continue to have as we have the gold price really moving, and the mining companies, yes, they're going upward, but probably not as much as people would expect during this type of environment. So any thoughts there?

Stefan Gleason:Well, and of course that's because their margins are shrinking even as the price is going up because their costs are going up more, more rapidly. I mean, I think that's part of the case for this is that mining companies have been price takers. They basically just sell at the first opportunity. Some of them sell early, they sell in advance through hedging, which maybe they're forced to do by their lenders or whatever. But the idea that they're just taking the price as at the moment that they produce, and it is what it is. If they were to hold back some of the production, that inherently not only would secure their balance sheet a little bit, but it would also hold back production, which would reduce supply, which theoretically would cause prices maybe to tend to rise. And so it's a win-win. They could be more of a price maker than a price taker if they change their mentality.

And I think that's one of the things that might bring investors back into the mining space is seeing, okay, they're not just geologists and accountants and they're not just selling for cash at the first opportunity, they're shepherding these assets in a smarter way, a more strategic way with a longer-term view, given the cycle of how long it takes to make these things happen, to just take the price at that moment. And again, I understand they need cash, they have debt. But anyway, a little bit of it and a time, hold some of it back, show your shareholders that you believe in gold and silver. Give them more of it within the company.

And again, it's so liquid, it's just like cash. If you're holding it in the right place, you can liquidate it immediately. Obviously, it is subject to the price fluctuations, but it's not like you take some huge haircut when you sell it or have difficulty selling it. It's like cash. In fact, it's better than cash.

Charlotte McLeod:Yeah, I think as you say, it's that mindset shift, which tend to take some time to actually happen, but it would be quite something to see that actually start to happen. Okay. So we've gone through, I think, a number of elements in the gold and silver market. Is there any other thoughts that you have that you would leave investors with during this time?

Stefan Gleason:Well, I think the big thing I like to talk about I already referenced, and that is to make sure that you don't get suckered into buying the rare coins. I think your audience is very well-informed. So I don't think that's probably as much of an issue. But in terms of expanding the market, there's obviously most people don't have any knowledge of gold and silver. They're becoming aware, "Hey, there's something wrong with this system, maybe I should do something." And I think it's really important that people learn. How do you know the price of gold and silver? Where do you find the price and how do you know what to buy? And again, stay away from the rare coins, know what the melt value is, buy that, work with a trusted dealer. Money Metals, I would say would be one of those choices. But there's many other good dealers. Make sure that you work with a trusted dealer, a trusted depository that has good controls, good service, fast delivery, an array of services to help you and just do your research.

Charlotte McLeod:I think very solid advice to end on. So thank you so much for coming on to go over what's going on. This is really good.

Stefan Gleason:Thanks, Charlotte. Great to be here. Thank you.

Charlotte McLeod:Of course. And once again, I'm Charlotte McLeod with InvestingNews.com. This is Stefan Gleason.

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